An insight into journeymen from Peter Buckley, Danny Thorpe and others

Records can be deceiving in boxing. It's not like football where you’re in a division by merit and face an even level of opposition week in, week out. Boxing’s journeymen are often the non-league minnow facing a Premiership team in a cup tie.

Not long ago at a fight card in London’s York Hall one casual fan commented to his mate, “Look at this geezer's record, it‘s shocking!” His more educated friend replied, “He ain’t that bad, he’s just a journeyman. They‘re not meant to win! its just their job.”

That conversation prompted this article, where some of our well known journeymen tell us what its all about.

Daniel Thorpe (pictured) has taken part in 139 professional fights spanning over ten years. When he turned pro he knew what he was getting into. “To be honest I turned pro to purely be a journeyman, I boxed amateur as a kid and packed it in for about eight years. I went back to boxing when I was about 23 and I thought it was a bit late to do much so I went down the journeyman route."

After nine months in the sport and ten bouts Daniel’s record of 4-5-1 had probably surpassed his own expectations. “After I started getting a few wins at the beginning it makes you want to move away from the journeyman tag and try your heart out for more wins and your gutted when you lose. But as it went on I started to realise I was up against it most of the time. So I started just doing the best I could to get through it.”

Journeymen do suffer some criticism for not trying to make a fight of it and some is no doubt justified but if they did spend every fight going toe to toe with their opponent this would put their longevity in the sport at risk. Daniel admits some fights he wasn’t totally committed to winning.

“A lot of the fights I was against up and comers so I tried to survive, that was my sort of style with good movement. I just wanted to get through the fight, get out, not get hurt and get paid.”

Regardless of what people say, the sport does need journeymen and Daniel agrees that the role they play is necessary to keep the UK boxing scene ticking over as it does.

“It’s a very important role, there would be none of these unbeaten records these days if it wasn’t for us. You still get novice journeymen and experienced journeymen like I was. I fought a kid called Steven Mullins on his debut who was meant to be a good prospect. He came out trying to blow my head off and I put him down with a good shot. He got up and came flying back at me and because of my experience I just waited and then finished him off.”

Daniel has now called it a day and sadly has hung up his gloves, not that the decision was totally his own. “I wanted to carry on to be honest, but the board took my licence. It’s because in my last few fights I wasn’t training properly, I cant argue with them because in my last few fights I was appalling but that was down to me not having time to train etc. No matter whether I was winning of losing I loved every minute of it."

James Tucker has been on the scene for a few years now and isn’t far off taking part in his 50th bout. He is a better boxer than his record suggests but admits when turning pro he didn’t know where his career was heading.

“To be honest I just wanted to take it as it comes. I had no expectation of being a champion, I just turned over without a plan.”

After losing most of his early fights James slotted in to his “opponent” role well and knows what is expected of him from promoters who use him on their shows.

“I think we are expected to fight any one any time. No matter what! Were also expected to lose! We're there to teach the youngsters something in the ring and to try and entertain the crowd and give a good fight.”

Fighting someone without a decent preparation and being matched against someone who is expected to beat you before you’ve even entered the ring would probably curb your enthusiasm of going for the win. But this is one major factor that journeymen have to deal with.

“I’ve had a lot of fights when I was called up a short notice. Sometimes I wasn’t really ready to box or even in my best shape to fight but I boxed anyway. Maybe in these fights I didn’t try as hard as I could have. I feel I lost some fights on points that I should of won and that made me lose heart a bit."

These days Tucker doesn’t have your usual journeyman mentality. He feels if he is given the opportunity he can achieve more from the sport than most would expect and has set himself some targets.

“I’d like to reach 100 fights in the next three years, hopefully I will win a few fights in the meantime and maybe get a shot at a Masters or an Area title.

“I’d love to get a few 50/50 fights but I can't sell the tickets so I have to fight who ever is put in front of me. I love boxing, I just like to have a fight in the ring. I’ve lost a lot of fights but I still enjoy what I do. I love having a good go.”

Johnny Greaves is another well known fighter who has travelled the UK shores from Devon to Glasgow on the pro circuit. During his four year career to date he has been in 65 fights and faced some talented fighters. Johnny knows about all aspects of the fight game now.

“I had about 30 amateur fights that were spread over a few years. Then I tried a bit of unlicensed boxing. When I was coming through it was funny, one week you would be fighting a lad that has been knocking people out in pubs and thinks he can handle himself in the ring but hasn’t really got a clue. Then the next week you would be fighting an ex pro!”

Fighters trying to make in the pro game have it tough these days. During the early days it’s all about selling tickets. Getting yourself prepared for the bout is hard enough let alone the pressure of having to shift a load of tickets and Johnny felt the best way forward was being the opponent.

“I got talking to Carl Greaves who said basically we can do it two ways. Either sell 80 tickets per show or be the opponent. Then I got a call and was offered a fight against Rob Hunt who was unbeaten. I got in the ring and did my job and took the money. So from day one I was always the opponent, I had no real title ambitions. If you look back at my first set of fights I was highly matched against good fighters, but I always walked forward and took the fight to them."

When a journeyman is fighting an up and coming prospect, the emphasis is on the prospect to push the action and take the fight to his opponent. Johnny doesn’t always stick to that rule, He tries to entertain the crowd and loves a good tear up.

“Being a journeyman you get taught be a bit smart, get told it’s not down to you entertain the crowd. But you put me in front of a crowd and I’m a bit of a performer with the Ali shuffle and that. Sometimes I’ve got in the ring with the intention of just fighting on the back foot and not getting involved because I’m not going to win. But I always end up giving it a good go."

As Johnny said earlier he didn’t turn pro with any real title ambitions, but he did have one clear goal which he is well on target to achieve. “I was coming up to 30 when I turned pro and I wanted to get as many fights in as possible before the Board had my licence off me and my goal was from day one was to get 100 fights. I could go on a 20 fight unbeaten run but as soon as I get to 100 that’s it."

Our young prospects need rounds under their belts, surely we all agree that blowing away opponents in 30 seconds is not giving a young boxer the experience he needs to improve his all round game. That’s another reason why our home grown journeymen are so important to boxing. Johnny totally agrees.

“The spate of Latvian lemmings that came over a little while ago are different to us journeymen. I don’t think they are journeymen, they just fall over when they get hit. A genuine journeyman is better than someone who is not going to test our young fighters. I’m actually proud of being a journeyman, it take great pride in testing some of the best fighters in the country.

“I think without the journeyman there would be any boxing as we know it. I know that a lot of these managers won’t risk their fighters against another winning fighter, they just won’t match them against each other. How many shows have fallen through at the 11th hour due to fighters pulling out? Johnny feels the journeymen have saved many shows over the years.

"We take fights at such short notice, I had a phone call once at two in the afternoon and I was in the ring at half six at the excel arena. I fought Gavin Rees on only 18 hours notice. By taking these fights at short notice we are saving the shows from falling apart sometimes."

One thing I’ve learned from talking to the bunch of guys is that the referees don’t do them many favours! They come to expect it but I wonder how many fights they should have actually got the nod but didn’t. Plenty I’m sure. Johnny looks back on his fights to date and thinks he’s been hard done by more than once!

“I’ve lost 62 now, - out of those I probably won 15 of them. About five of those have been complete stinkers. You come to expect it now, after the first year or so you learn how the game works so now I’m used to it. The worst case is the small hall shows when you're fighting someone who’s sold 150 tickets and it all revolves around them winning. On the bigger TV shows you get a fairer decision but your boxing against the next big thing who have been ABA champions and there not really winnable fights."

Nottingham’s Matt Scriven is a seasoned pro and has been in the game since 1997, taking part in 94 fights to date. Matt fought quite a bit before he turned pro.

“When I was younger I boxed at the Radford Boys Boxing club where Nicky and Jason Booth trained. Then I left the club and went to joining the army, I had about 60 fights.”

Matt had no expectations when he turned pro, as he says, "I just had a chance to turn pro and took it!” So when he had been fighting for a while and had suffered a handful of loses did his attitude to boxing change? “No, not at all. I have always boxed purely for my enjoyment. I have always been fascinated with boxing since I was a youngster. I still feel that you learn as you go on so its all about trying to improve and get better as I get older.”

At one stage of his career Matt admits he wasn’t fully motivated, things have changed now though.

“I went through a spell when I wasn’t really trying to get a win, I was just relaxing and concentrating on getting through the fight. But then I realised that half of these fights I could win if I pushed it. A lot of the fights are difficult because your called up at short notice and the whole crowd is against you. These days I’m always trying 100% to get a win."

Matt has had the pleasure (or displeasure) of sharing the ring with some of the UK’s best fighters. He knows first hand which fighters could go all the way. Matt was kind enough to give BoxRec News' readers his take on who has the potential to go all the way.

“Probably Billy Joe Saunders (pictured), I think he will turn into something very special. I think he is fighting above his weight and I think he would be more effective at a lower weight. Luke Robinson is another one to watch out for. That kid has an engine, that was a hard fight to get through, he gave me a right hiding. I don’t want too many of them!”

These guys don’t box for free, they are in the game to earn a living. Matt is happy with the amount of work he is getting but knows he needs to be careful, because if a journeyman take several bad losses or stoppages there is always the risk of his licence being revoked.

“The Board are on everyone’s case so I want to be a bit more picky with the fights I take. I don’t want to give them any excuses to take my licence away. The Southern Area Board are really good guys and they gave us a kick up the arse which has paid off. They made it quite clear they don’t want us just earning our money and surviving through fights. It’s making our fights more competitive."

Now a journeyman article wouldn’t be complete without some input from the king of journeymen himself, Peter Buckley (pictured) who retired in 2008 after competing in 300 professional bouts. Peter is still involved in the game and has now got a trainer's licence. He finished up sporting a 32-256-12 record. Did Peter have a plan when he turned pro? Did he ever imagine his career would turn out like that?

“No chance, I thought I’d have a couple of fights and that would be it. I was a half decent amateur. I only lost about four out of fifty fights and my last fight amateur fight was in the NABC finals. I wasn’t expecting too much but I was doing alright in the early part of my career. Before I knew it I was on my 100th fight and some people were asking when I was going to pack it in. But I told them I hadn’t even started yet and was just warming up."

Peter didn’t turn pro with the intentions of becoming a journeyman, it just happened that way and considering he hit the 300 fight mark I think he enjoyed it.

"I think I realised my journeyman role after about 30 fights, not everyone can be a journeyman, it's an art that you have to learn. Anyone can go out there and get beat, but it’s the manner you get beat without getting hurt. I always knew I could look after myself in the ring because I used to spar with some good lads like Paul Wesley who fought for the British title."

After having 300 fights and still being in good health, Peter must have been doing something right. Some fights were all about survival and you have to box clever. Peter was kind enough to reveal how he managed to get through his fights taking minimal punishment.

“You know when you're up against it, you’ve got to use your brain, so instead of fighting for three minutes every round you fight for one minute every round. You have a walk round, you grab hold and muck them about a bit. Then you push them off and when you’ve pushed them off you have a walk round the ring. I used to like winding them up a bit in the ring too.

"John Murray couldn’t believe the way I talked to him through his debut against me when he threw a left hook to my body I said, “John, you don’t throw them like that you throw them like this!” and I threw one back, he looked at me like I was mad!

"I was always advised to earn as much money as you can without getting hurt. In 300 fights I never had a cut eye, all I every had was a cut on my nose after a clash of heads. Sometimes on the road you knew you were never going to get a decision so you think shall I put it all on the line here or just have a little move about and take it easy? That’s what I did a lot of the time and came out without a mark on me.”

Having been in the game for so long Peter could write a novel sharing all his tales, he also saved a few shows. This story in particular just highlights exactly what a true journeyman stands for.

“I remember once I was in Birmingham about three miles from where I lived and my car broke down. I was under the car trying to fix it and had already burnt my arm, then the phone goes and Nobby says there’s a fight going. I asked him when and he said ‘now’ in Nottingham against Alex Moon. I rang my brother to borrow his car and got to Nottingham in about an hour and a half, weighed in, saw the doctor then I was in the ring. I never ever turned a fight down in my life.”

So next time you see someone with a loss column that heavily outweighs the win column, remember they are doing a job - one of the toughest jobs in the sport.